Iberostar Paraiso Maya Resort is a major five-hotel complex at Playa Paraiso in Playa del Carmen on Mexico's Mayan Riviera, located 30 minutes south of the Cancun airport. I also made up the cards (business card blanks) that just say Gracias which I leave with the tips. What is there to do? To use our mobile site, please enable JavaScript. We are going to (ta && ta.queueForLoad ? My wife also likes spinning so she is wondering if any spinning classes are offered there as well. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the bunch for the rest of us. It said that a couple of employees would get some type of "bonus". It doesn't help anybody. A letter or comment to the management for *above and beyond* service of a certain employee would be just as effective. Of course, once this practice gets started, it does affect YOUR service. any advice would be. We can all have differing points of view, can't we? Thank you very much, that is very helpful! ta.queueForLoad : function(f, g){document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', f);})(function(){ta.trackEventOnPage('postLinkInline', 'impression', 'postLinks-8909351', '');}, 'log_autolink_impression');the Grand the week of Thanksgiving - I am counting the days.. thank you everyone for the advice! Playa Paraiso. You and I share totally differing opinions, but I don't feel like you are being disrespectful. The past couple of years I have bought baseball caps (good deals on www.hitrunscore.com). Iberostar Grand Paraiso: Resort First Timers - See 9,286 traveller reviews, 13,197 candid photos, and great deals for Playa Paraiso, Mexico, at Tripadvisor. I'll paste 50 dollar bills to my forehead if I want to! I was just there and noticed that many people did tip regularly. I believe his writing style is different than us junior members of tripadvisor and that is why he said good bye. I was just there and noticed that many people did tip regularly. Thank you for any help! Little did I know that in answering *APRATA's* question, I would ignite such a hotbed of protest. If there is turndown service at night you might want to leave $1. I was just there and noticed that many people did tip regularly. You have already paid your *premium* price for this service. Just returned from Iberostar Grand Any Questions? We first encountered the full force of tipping when we went to Florida (2001), where we felt that it was expected of us and that it had to be 15% or more! Not to mention the employees, understandably, favor those tippers. It is NOT necessary to tip, as you are paying for an *all inclusive* , this means *everything* from (ta && ta.queueForLoad ? He was there on Andrea's last visit. This is the version of our website addressed to speakers of English in the United States. But we actually use the stuff so little, we don't always remember. This is certainly acceptable. If you are a resident of another country or region, please select the appropriate version of Tripadvisor for your country or region in the drop-down menu. It must be due to my "inferiority complex". It is already paid for! No one will tell me not to tip though. Visitors to Iberostar Grand Paraso hotel wake in the mornings to views of the warm, blue waters of the Caribbean or cool, green gardens from the suites where they can enjoy privacy and space in secluded suites and villas.The rooms at the Playa del Carmen all-inclusive resort have everything needed for a perfect stay. We leave money and a note with what we would like in our room fridge. we did tip a lot, mister taylor we are 44444. so i hope youwill have a great holid relaxxxxxx. There are some resorts where the acceptance of the tips are grounds for being fired. Looking for best beach in Playa Del Carmen. I was surprised at how many but they have that righ and I respect that. I appreciate missouridarbydog's comments. Is it customary to tip the waiters and the bartenders, and if yes, what is a decent tip? Alternatively, you may use. the question is "to eat or not to eat.". I was tipping bartenders/waitresses $1 per round. Answer 41 of 83: We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. I have to wonder if this is why I have read so many negative comments on the butler service. Thank you for any help! A complimentary comment to the management could aid in them being compensated even more in the form of raised pay or promotion. ta.queueForLoad : function(f, g){document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', f);})(function(){ta.trackEventOnPage('postLinkInline', 'impression', 'postLinks-8217696', '');}, 'log_autolink_impression');the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. . "Maybe it is time to put this subject to bed and move on to other things as it has been beaten to death .and some people are getting a bit hot under the collar -and that is something that is NOT wanted in this forum . I also bring small gifts to give out. Of course there will always be those who are not comfortable in NOT giving a little something. Playa Paraso is an extraordinary place where you will find lush jungle vegetation and some of the world's most famous archaeological sites. just came back from the grand hotel paraiso,we tipped mostly breakfast,2 dollars, lunch mostly 3 dollars,and the spec rest,depense karim at the italian was perfect we gave him 10 dollars,the jappanees 5 dollars,and in the lobbybar 5 dollars as we left for dinner,after a couple off drinks.the cleaninglady total 20 dollars, and turndouwn 5 dollars.butler 10 dollars and bellman 5 dollars . In Canada , and as I have learned from this forum in Europe, tips are presented for exceptional service when at an all-inclusive resort. I also tIpped the shuttle drivers $2-3 dollars every time I needed a ride as I was staying in building 70 on the oceanfront and it was a long walk to the main areas of the resort. We are going to (ta && ta.queueForLoad ? Everyone has their own opinion on tipping and will follow whatever practices they deem appropriate. Can I use the lazy river / wave pool at the Lindo if I stay at the Beach or Del Mar? 3 Votes ta.queueForLoad : function(f, g){document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', f);})(function(){ta.trackEventOnPage('postLinkInline', 'impression', 'postLinks-8217696', '');}, 'log_autolink_impression');the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. Is it customary to tip the waiters and the bartenders, and if yes, what is a decent tip? Not being travel savy we booked the first trip through a local national travel agency. does the butler get more, like $10-20 (assuming they are doing a good job)? . So unless a resort forbids it I feel it is appropriate to tip for good service. Thank you for any help! I have to wonder if this is why I have read so many negative comments on the butler service. We tipped him $50 and never saw him again. For me personally, at breakfast at lunch buffet: $1-2 breakfast but only if the coffee keeps coming and they get my juice. Before going i read the reviews on tipping, I found that I was being ignored quite a lot it even got to the stage where other customers were sending the barstaff over to me. It is not necessary to carry a wallet or purse all day just in case you need to purchase or tip someone. Iberostar Grand Paraiso, Playa Paraiso: Bekijk 9.285 beoordelingen, 13.626 foto's en aanbiedingen voor Iberostar Grand Paraiso, gewaardeerd als nr.1 van 14 hotels in Playa Paraiso en geclassificeerd als 5 van 5 bij Tripadvisor. . Cheap Eats? I was tipping bartenders/waitresses $1 per round. As I said, please do so discreetly. In addition, the ala carte waiters were usually very good and I'd tip them $5 per meal. "I think we can agree to disagree on that one. Playa Del Carmen Boutique, Budget & BeachHotels. Re: how much to tip at iberostar grand? No one will tell me not to tip though. Is it customary to tip the waiters and the bartenders, and if yes, what is a decent tip? Thank you for any help! what is a decent tip? I didn't notice any difference in the level of serviceafter all, tipping is usually at the end of a service performed, right? Iberostar Grand Paraso hotel is designed with adults in mind. Members who are knowledgeable about this destination and volunteer their time to answer travelers' questions. Tipping! Members who are knowledgeable about this destination and volunteer their time to answer travelers' questions. Iberostar Grand Paraiso: Pari dice re invented - See 9,287 traveler reviews, 13,197 candid photos, and great deals for Iberostar Grand Paraiso at Tripadvisor. Is it customary to tip the waiters and the bartenders, and if yes, what is a decent tip? You should not have to pay extra for good service at such an expensive resort. It really is nice to see the programs that these companies have to reward their employees that go above and beyond, kind of like ours here. Where you so graciously oblige them. . Put it to rest and get on with your lives and stop insulting each other. Playa Paraiso. This site is about finding help and helping others in their travels. ), my newspaper delivery person, FEDEX man, UPS man, etc. After a few bucks, your favorite bartender will know you by name! Answer 11 of 83: We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. Paradisus La Esmeralda / La Perla any updates ? Buffet waiters I'd give $2 if they brought us beverages and kept our table free of dirty plates. What are the differences and exchange privileges of the IB Playa Paraiso resorts? That being said, I do leave a couple of bucks for the maids as my kids are pigs!!! . Grand ADULTS ONLY All Inclusive Sustainability Hotel No. Budget accommodations for solo mature female traveler? General Manager of Iberostar Grand Paraiso, iberostar grand paraiso riveria maya or paradisus rivera may. Playa Paraiso Hotels Bed and Breakfast Playa Paraiso Playa Paraiso Holiday Rentals Flights to Playa Paraiso Playa Paraiso Restaurants Playa Paraiso Attractions Playa Paraiso Travel Forum Playa Paraiso Photos Playa Paraiso Map Playa Paraiso Guide All Playa Paraiso Hotels; Playa Paraiso Hotel Deals; Last Minute Hotels in Playa Paraiso Playa Paraiso Tourism Playa Paraiso Hotels Playa Paraiso Guest House for the maids, is $2 per day ok? more, You seem to have JavaScript disabled. Is it customary to tip the waiters and the bartenders, and if yes, what is a decent tip? We are going to (ta && ta.queueForLoad ? What will the Weather be Like When I Visit? Alternatively, you may use. You should not have to pay extra for good service at such an expensive resort. Iberostar Grand Paraiso vs. I hope you're talking about another Rene! Answer 1 of 6: What about the spa? Adults????? does the butler get more, like $10-20 (assuming they are doing a good job)? everybody take a chill pill mr taylor is as stated in one of his posts 79 years old so give him a break he may not have all his faculties. oh and the girls who bring you ,your drinks at the pool every thime 1 dollar. ISLA MUJERES: How do I get there? The purpose being that these comments may benefit them in additional gratuities. Members who are extremely knowledgeable about this destination and answer travellers questions frequently. more, You seem to have JavaScript disabled. They prefer for the guests to pay their help. ta.queueForLoad : function(f, g){document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', f);})(function(){ta.trackEventOnPage('postLinkInline', 'impression', 'postLinks-41283293', '');}, 'log_autolink_impression');the Grand. Is it customary to tip the waiters and the bartenders, and if yes, what is a decent tip? This is what I tip for good service at an AI: $1USD for each round of drinks, $3 at a buffet, $5 for full service breakfast or lunch, $10 at dinner, $5 each morning for housekeeping, $2 for turndown service, $1 for person stocking drinks in the room, $1 per bag for bellman. Thank you for any help! also you have to fill out a firm when you are at the grand off the end of your vacation with a lot off qestion the are offten asked for a name off the emplo, who did a great job for you when you were on vac. for the maids, is $2 per day ok? See if you can follow 1) Earlier you told us that you always receive great service. Answer 31 of 83: We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. The whole idea of an all inclusive is the ease of it. Also, depending on where I am going, I do t-shirts with iron on transfers. and if the service is good, food ectra,than i think pers you tip .the all will appreciat it.and to the travelag, we do tip in europe if you go out for a nice dinner,ore a drink in the bar you always gife a euro. aprata - When are you going? I also bring small gifts to give out. It is a wide practice in Europe that the gratuity is included in your bill but also customary to leave a few coins at the table. This is the version of our website addressed to speakers of English in the United States. This topic has been closed to new posts due to inactivity. we would like to have rooms close together or in the same block and on the top floor, near the beach or a quiet. You have already paid your *premium* price for this service. How do you know what the workers get in tips that are pre-paid? Otherwise I generally tip my waiter/waitress 15-30%. you got it nothing beats a crowded bar or restaurant and not having to wait forever for what ever it is you need i have been a plumber for 33 years and during busy season my clients that pay faster or more prompt get the better service that is just a fact of life maybe the average joe cant comprehend that oh well hopetheir drink comes soon cause im on my second ha ha. Answer 1 of 9: Can someone tell me about Iberostar Grand Paraiso? Snorkel Rental? Answer 11 of 83: We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. When you have someone give you great service for 2-3 hrs. They made that very clear to us from the start (an employee could get fired for accepting a tip). Thank you for any help! How do I know they don't really make a ton of money as opposed to what they say they get? I don't tip to get good service but because I have received good service. It is NOT necessary to tip, as you are paying for an *all inclusive* , this means *everything* from (ta && ta.queueForLoad ? It is a wide practice in Europe that the gratuity is included in your bill but also customary to leave a few coins at the table. It's called "cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap. Just returned from Iberostar Grand Any Questions? Thank you very much, that is very helpful! It just seems like you're the one who's getting a bit worked up about the subject. It is not necessary to carry a wallet or purse all day just in case you need to purchase or tip someone. what is a decent tip? You have already paid your *premium* price for this service. Coming from the uk we tip what we feel is right for the service and it's usually 5-10, but if Florida if you didn't make it at least 15% you got very strange looks! How is the beach at Iberostar Paraiso resorts? I think tipping is very cultural and most people from the US are used to tipping for good service. If you stay at (ta && ta.queueForLoad ? This is equivalent to $129.00 dollars of their currency (1=129). More to the point, your latest post didn't say anything about a resort giving a set portion/percentage of my resort fees to the workers. tipping at Iberostar Grand Hotel Paraiso 15 years ago Save We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. taxi from cancun airport to iberostar lindo? What restaurants are at IB Lindo/Maya and what are the hours? They deserve it! If you are a resident of another country or region, please select the appropriate version of Tripadvisor for your country or region in the drop-down menu. WHERE SHOULD I EAT? Thank you for any help! ", "I also think it is tacky to pick on a 79 year old man for sharing his experience and opinion.". You should not have to pay extra for good service at such an expensive resort. Re: tipping at Iberostar Grand Hotel Paraiso, Get answers to your questions about Playa Paraiso. I don't think that those of us who tip a bit ruin anything for anyone. Where you so graciously oblige them. more. To use our mobile site, please enable JavaScript. Playa Paraiso. I agree that they work very hard. No, 4000 for vacation is not cheap-that's what we're paying for our IB Grand vacation in December. Playa Paraiso Tourism Playa Paraiso Hotels Playa Paraiso Guest House Gimmie a break! You can be "number 4" or any other number you choose. Can I use the lazy river / wave pool at the Lindo if I stay at the Beach or Del Mar? Thank you for any help! I certainly appreciated reading different perspectives on the topic. You certainly dont have to tip what you would at home, but the guideline the previous poster gave are very good. It is very obvious to me that we are seeing an issue from completely different sides because of our very different life experiences. Those that do a really good job get presents. This is not Grand specific, but we also tip similarly to Andrea. We tip when there's two of us Bellboy -$5 Breakfast $2 Lunch $5 Dinner &10-20 Room service $2 Maid $2-5 morning and evening Golf cart ride $2 Drinks $2 Unless it's Daniel at the pool bar and then $5. I hope you enjoy your stay at the Iberostar Grand Paraiso and keep your pesos for shopping! HONEYMOON Hotels & Resorts: Playa & Beyond, Ocean trips (Catamarans, fishing , Jet Skis and more, Browse all 123,480 Playa del Carmen topics . Answer 31 of 83: We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. Answer 51 of 83: We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. I also tIpped the shuttle drivers $2-3 dollars every time I needed a ride as I was staying in building 70 on the oceanfront and it was a long walk to the main areas of the resort. Playa Paraiso. just because we're told that gratuities are "included" it doesn't mean that the employee gets any of what we pay-it just means the resort says you don't have to give them anything. This is equivalent to $129.00 dollars of their currency (1=129). The Iberostar Paraiso Beach is centrally located on the Riviera Maya, near one of the Yucatan Peninsula's most beautiful white-sand beaches, Playa de Punta Maroma. I will say that the reception and the entertainment staff were 5 star. It is already paid for! If you don't want to tip that's fine--and believe me there are a lot more people who don't tip at all than people who do. A complimentary comment to the management could aid in them being compensated even more in the form of raised pay or promotion. I may also add, it is a known practice for employees of certain hotels to pose as tourists and post comments on these wesites. Is it customary to tip the waiters and the bartenders, and if yes, what is a decent tip? Where to have taxi drop off in PDC/5th Ave? The Mayan Riviera is a wildly popular vacation area and Playa del Carmen is a hotspot with many all-inclusive resorts. If you ask for something special (such as drinks for the mini-bar $1-2 is good). Alternatively, you may use, Iberostar Grand Rose Hall Questions & Answers. Buffet waiters I'd give $2 if they brought us beverages and kept our table free of dirty plates. When you say the difference is that the gratuity is "included", yes, it TECHNICALLY is. did you also know that when its slow season that employees are asked to take time off from work without pay to avert layoffs that is a fact and i will bet the price of a weeks vacation at the grand for two anybody to prove me wrong. Also, I am a little concerned that you "are getting a bit hot under the collar - and that is something that is NOT wanted in this forum". Thank you for any help! A complimentary comment to the management could aid in them being compensated even more in the form of raised pay or promotion. The purpose being that these comments may benefit them in additional gratuities. Thank you very much, that is very helpful! Re: tipping at Iberostar Grand Hotel Paraiso, Get answers to your questions about Playa Paraiso. Turtle Tips! You posted with this righteous fierceness that kind of came across like your way is the only way. Playa Paraiso Tourism Playa Paraiso Hotels Playa Paraiso Bed and Breakfast I base it on service. I took $400 for tipping for good service but I found you only got the service after a tip, so i didnt use it all. what is a decent tip? This is certainly acceptable. On my last day I left small Thank You cards for the wonderful Star Team members and the staff working at the towel hut who I made good friends with during my two week stay. We tell our clients of this hassle free vacation and they go there only to feel uncomfortable because they see other guests tipping and it makes them look cheap. No one will tell me not to tip though. Answer 1 of 83: We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. It is not necessary to carry a wallet or purse all day just in case you need to purchase or tip someone. We also tipped the Butler as and when he did things for us . You certainly dont have to tip what you would at home, but the guideline the previous poster gave are very good. If you don't want to tip that's fine--and believe me there are a lot more people who don't tip at all than people who do. "In parts of the USA tipping must be much more common.". what is a decent tip? at dinner or someone makes drinks for you all day and night, how can you give them nothing? If anyone else reading these comments resents my honest answer to the question I would welcome your feedback. I can only summize that the people who ARE tipping were not aware of this or think they will get better service if they do. No it is "The Rene" that I am talking about .Lets just say: Sometimes people are better waiters than Captains.That small bit of power can change a person real fast.. If you usually get great service, but only a couple people get a "bonus", don't you think the remaining employees who've given you great service are being short changed? Is it customary to tip the waiters and the bartenders, and if yes, what is a decent tip? If you are a resident of another country or region, please select the appropriate version of Tripadvisor for your country or region in the drop-down menu. Let them know you are unhappy, point out why, whom, whatever and let them know that your vacation experienced has been affected by the lack of service. i just want to say,thats allincl,meens sometimes,not always inc tips. The resort is surrounded by mangroves and rain forest, and the grounds are beautifully cared for, with an eye to protecting the native wildlife. I agree with poster RU-OK-2, I stayed for two weeks at the Iberostar Grand Paraiso in March 2018 and I tipped as he did. How is the beach at Iberostar Paraiso resorts? There are some resorts where the acceptance of the tips are grounds for being fired. . We are going to (ta && ta.queueForLoad ? Not to mention the employees, understandably, favor those tippers. Staying at (ta && ta.queueForLoad ? You should not have to pay extra for good service at such an expensive resort. Tipping is not much more common in some parts, it is expected in all parts of the service industry in the US, namely bartenders and waiters. Oh right, just "ok" employees get to stay, but at the bad employee's rate of pay and the ones who we all write wonderful letters about, get all the "tips". Remember that if you give a GIFT you need to leave a note saying that its a gift and give your name/room number (I made up little cards on my computer with this information). If you still feel the need to do this, please, please do it DISCREETLY. Dont forget to tip the bellboys. Email for Advanced Restaurant Reservations and Room Preferen, Iberostar Grand Paraso vs Haven Riviera Cancun. We'll be there the Saturday after Thanksgiving. . more. It is really the resorts fault for not doing this. over a year ago GlobeTrot. Book Iberostar Grand Paraiso, Playa Paraiso on Tripadvisor: See 9,285 traveler reviews, 13,626 candid photos, and great deals for Iberostar Grand Paraiso, ranked #1 of 14 hotels in Playa Paraiso and rated 5 of 5 at Tripadvisor. I was wondering if someone can give me some insights on the sports facilities of the del Mar - condition of the gym, tennis courts, etc. Not to mention the employees, understandably, favor those tippers. We tell our clients of this hassle free vacation and they go there only to feel uncomfortable because they see other guests tipping and it makes them look cheap. Dear guest, We would like first of all to thank you for your great review of your stay with us at Iberostar Grand Paraiso. How can you say the difference is just cheap, cheap, cheap? We bring plenty of 5s and 1s and tip regularly and well no matter the resort, as long as service levels justify it. When you have someone give you great service for 2-3 hrs. Answer 11 of 83: We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. ta.queueForLoad : function(f, g){document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', f);})(function(){ta.trackEventOnPage('postLinkInline', 'impression', 'postLinks-8469969', '');}, 'log_autolink_impression');airfare, transfers, hotel, taxes, meals, non-motorized watersports, and GRATUITIES are included. I can only summize that the people who ARE tipping were not aware of this or think they will get better service if they do. more. Answer 41 of 83: We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. I tipped her $2 every morning for her omlettes made to order. I still am adament that flashing cash in an obvious manner to bribe for service is just plain tacky! just because we're told that gratuities are "included" it doesn't mean that the employee gets any of what we pay-it just means the resort says you don't have to give them anything. Need singles as well. However, when your gratuity is included at a resort then why do you also feel it is necessary to pay several dollars each time a service is rendered? This is certainly acceptable. ta.queueForLoad : function(f, g){document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', f);})(function(){ta.trackEventOnPage('postLinkInline', 'impression', 'postLinks-8217696', '');}, 'log_autolink_impression');the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. You can disagree with his opinion but do you have to be nasty to the person. I agree with poster RU-OK-2, I stayed for two weeks at the (ta && ta.queueForLoad ? The resorts should either do away with gratuities included or enforce the rules. Is it customary to tip the waiters and the bartenders, and if yes, what is a decent tip? AKUMAL BAY: How do I get there? As a travel agent, I have read your question and was concerned at the responses you were getting. Maybe you could cut him a little slack. Now on page 6 you've come back with many paragraphs of misleading information. I don't think that those of us who tip a bit ruin anything for anyone. Oh, I forgot how many mansions I saw them living in. . They deserve it! Playa Paraiso Tourism Playa Paraiso Accommodation This is the version of our website addressed to speakers of English in the United States. Iberostar Grand vs. Grand Palladium Colonial. Answer 1 of 83: We are going to the Grand at the end of November, it is our first time at an all inclusive hotel. In my experience, most employees where we have stayed in PDC are very grateful and gracious when you give them a tip. After a few bucks, your favorite bartender will know you by name! Thanks for your comments. I found by the second week I had to leave a regular $5 tip to get any reasonable service. For Royal PDC this september (my birthday) I have the following t's. Alternatively, you may use. You can use them. He's such a sweet man, and probably the best waiter we've had anywhere. Playa Paraiso. As a travel agent, I have read your question and was concerned at the responses you were getting. Visitors will find rooms designed for luxury, including marble bathrooms . "Maybe you could cut him a little slack.". In addition, the ala carte waiters were usually very good and I'd tip them $5 per meal. Members who are knowledgeable about this destination and volunteer their time to answer travelers' questions. Gimmie a break! How do you even know what they are paid in salary? Where you so graciously oblige them. I have to wonder if this is why I have read so many negative comments on the butler service. Actually though, I do. Playa Paraiso Tourism Playa Paraiso Hotels Playa Paraiso Bed and Breakfast Playa Paraiso Holiday Rentals Playa Paraiso Packages . If their service/attitude stinks, I'll stiff them. Thank you for any help! I personally find it to be liberating - I don't have to carry cash to every tom, dick, and harry w/their hand out. It is really the resorts fault for not doing this. Thank you for any help! Last time, we tipped Victor $20 at the beginning, and then tipped him as he did various things for us (golf cart rides, etc.) I myself though take $2.00 and $1.00 bills. A letter or comment to the management for *above and beyond* service of a certain employee would be just as effective.
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