I dont find that these scenarios were what Jesus intended. The theology is weak. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. We are to not worry about that; rather, be glad that any are saved. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? We know that some of you disagree with us. Why the pessimism? Do they represent your brand of reformed thought? The list 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians includes Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist), Stephen Tong, D. A. Carson, John F. MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. There is some truth in this, but to bring thought control into it turns it into legalism. Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. The few times we have joined her at her church the pastor has focused on being examples of love and doing good in the community. @ Katie: We all went to Bostons Youthtimeno mention of Calvinism, Armininism or in between like me. If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. Howard Hendricks 20. Im not saying I agree with everything in the WCF, but its a really large hurdle to overcome to show that something it directly states is misrepresentative of Reformed thology/Calvinism without a mountain of evidence to support it. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. This is a corollary to Julie Anne Smith's story above. For a son to commit suicide? Admittedly, Calvin also had a lot of temporal power, which he did not always use wisely. Arguing these issues sends me down the crazy cycle of shame, pain, abandonment, God not hearing me, etc. If Ive erred here, please forgive me for speaking out of turn . The guy in the video I linked to above (or the host of the channel, I forget which after I watched the first video, I watched about five more by the bearded guy who owns the channel) mentioned WCF, too, and pointed out what he considered to be flaws with WCFs statements, which he seemed to think are in agreement with some Calvinistic views about God decreeing stuff/ predestination. They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. I dont know if that helps or confuses- I wish I could have quoted more. The list consists of 89 members. whats wrong with mess anyway? Of course you are. He should be a great example to you. Recent Arminians include Charles Finney, Dwight Moody, Billy Graham, Rick Warren and most other "mainline" preachers and evangelists. It is disingenuous for anyone to rebut the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin unless this was a point where the WCF and Calvin disagreed (and I dont think it was). It is not love to push Calvin. You see, dedicated, intelligent theologianshave gone down this road for centuries and still disagree with one another. Can they wrestle with it on their own? Pray for him. He said I was wrong. This is such a profound conversation and so close to my heart! Weve all been taught by people with various frameworks- that isnt bad. And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter10], Jewish Theology Systematically and Historically Considered (1918) [Chapter7], Norman Geisler[footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology[/footnote]. There are Cals who admonish other Cals to stop behaving this way, sometimes in their in-house squabbles such as, List of non-calvinist denominations? : r/Christianity - reddit No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. If you read it,you will most likely have a heart attack. Online, of course, its much harder to gauge actually, impossible, since you have no idea who is reading what youre writing. Theologians - Laikos Theologos There are Christians who remain Christian, who believe in Christ, without seeing Calvinism supported in the Bible. Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. I dont know. There are some statements Ive thought were wrong that weve let go through, because we think sometimes it is better to give a voice than stifle a hurting person because she doesnt get every last thing correct. Hopefully that will be winding down soon and Ill be able to get back on track this week or next. HERE AHURA-MAZDA, THERE AHRIMAN!. Just an observation. He shouldnt be let out of his cage yet. Man is completely helpless in his sinful state, is under the . (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell??). Breathes words of consolation deep inside you. I think you will see that there are real differences: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/, What do you think I see within Calvinism that might make it hard for me to accept that system? I think you may have answered that in your post: I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. Instead, you consider this shorthand for biblical Christianity. And our needs are met by taking ground and accomplishing; because we were robbed of our inheritance and starved of purpose and significance. Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. All are welcome to participate. of one. If you read non-Calvinism is evil youd probably feel a desire to defend your viewpoint too. I think Christendom could profit greatly from more women in the pulpit. In fact, Ive probably used that word less in the previous 14 years than I have this last year interacting online. I admit, I tend to just let people rant any way they want to and hold them (so to speak) when they are done. A hearty AMEN numo. . But the main thing is that Ive been a Calvinist for a long time- probably 15 years. I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. And the reason I identify that way is not because I want to convert people, but because I just didnt like all the hatred spewed out at the belief system. There are 5 major points of disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians. and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. 20 Well-known Pastors or Preachers of Today - GodTube They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. more of an approach to others than a nuance of their own philosophy. Push back is not the same thing as not wanting people to be honest. There is much we have in common, but I honestly have to say that I have encountered more of a critical attitude toward other denominations while I was in the neo-Calvinist camp. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org As far as truth is concerned, I believe that it reflects what the Bible says is the result of Adams sin. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. He is NOT against us, but thank God, He is for us!! When people reject Calvinism because they think it makes us mindless automatons, that bothers me because that isnt what it is about. @ Bridget: List of Christian theologians - Wikipedia But I dont think I have to pick. But, as Ilook back, I am gratified bythe number of friends who have stayed the course through the years. Jesus statement that my food is to do the will of him who sent me applies in our context. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. But the rest of the bad stuff? Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? Donald Arthur Carson (born December 21, 1946) is Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and co-founder of The Gospel Coalition. Hi guys, great posts, esp (from a personal point of view) from Jeff S, TW, Nick Bulbeck and others its been such a long thread I cant remember them all . I had Wade Burelson come to my little rinky-dink blog and debate me on my turf. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. As far as the WCF- sure it isnt exactly what Calvin taught. @ Daisy: Online discussions of religion and politics usually end by going up in flames, with a lot of nastiness to boot. There is a new evangelism taking place. Yet, their theology is reformed. 5 Myths about Calvinism | Crossway Articles But I know the principles are the same. Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. Its all up to God. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? What content does your faith have?. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. First of all, I agree with what Jeff S wrote about the word leaders. Also, even if I considered someone a leader, I dont march in lockstep with him/her. John Piper truly had no idea why his tweet from Job 1 caused an uproar. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. I understand its maddening to shoot at a moving target. Does this sound like a CULT(TM) to you? An infant does not want, nor desire steak. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life., 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! And I pretty much agree with everything you say here. A stupendously important point, Jeff. list of non calvinist theologians. . The theology is weak. I think that is biblical. Yes, Nouthetic Counseling and a lot of teachers have given this impression, but they are wrong. Another thank you, this time for writing tenet instead of tenant. Anyway, if this means that God made you say the words, and made you think the thoughts that led to them, this is not what Calvin believed, though I think Hyper-Calvinists believe this. But I do believe in TULIP and the majority of the WCF- what label should I use to communicate that when people are interested? 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I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. They are his laws; they are not independent in nature. Nope. And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, Which commandment is the most important of all? Jesus answered, The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? Which is fine! Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell?? Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). @ Daisy: Right thinking about what God himself teaches us about himself, us, our world, and salvation matters deeply. This is a list of lists of Christian theologians organized by denomination, century, nationality, and additional specialized categories. And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love ones neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, You are not far from the kingdom of God. And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. Mohler says the seminarys current prosperity is a sign of Gods blessing on an institution that rejected liberal trends in society and returned to more conservative social ideas. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. My only reason for defending Calvinism here is because I want the focus not to be on Soteriology, but on fighting abuse. Philosophers (not necessarily Christian ones) have wrestled with these questions for thousands of years without any real answers. The larger discussion is one I think those who wish to explore this issue would find interesting, but I simply cannot quote all of it (and I hope its OK to quote as much as I do here- if this will create legal issues for the blog, please strike the comment). I have to admit-this made me giggle. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). 3680 / C (Canadian Dollars) Wilfred Laurier University (Waterloo Lutheran Seminary) Lutheran. We really, really need it. It affirms that God is sovereign., Pg 79: